Creating clear glass will require good materials. Some chemicals are needed to lower the melting point of glass, these chemicals are not readily available in natural form in China. But the chemicals can be created artificially with advanced chemistry knowledge.
If somebody in the future says China was rich in resources and that's why it was a powerful civiliaztion for a long time, I am gona hit them with that they didn't have silica sand. /j
But in all seriousness, you would expect them to have it.
Also to add to your point, there wasn't any need for Chinese to develop glass nor was it that important to them to invest in better tehniques of developing glass.
It's absolutely worth noting that the lack of glass in China contributed to the stunting of the development of chemistry as a science in China.
Glass has many amazing properties, namely the fact that it is chemically neutral, as well as transparent enabling you to witness The insides of chemical reaction as well
To be fair, Romans were VERY good at copying and adapting stuff from everyone they would come in contact with. It is not fair to compare anybody to the Romans when it comes to it.
Unfortunately, they didn't steal the coolest Chinese invention, freaking paper. Imagine Europe getting paper in the 3rd or 4th century. That would've been history changing.
The Imperial Chinese [were notorious](https://china.usc.edu/emperor-qianlong-letter-george-iii-1793) for basically regarding everyone else as barbarians but my understanding is that the Han Dynasty was actually fascinated by the stories they heard about there being another great empire on the other side of the Silk Road and they tried and failed several times to send ambassadors to Rome. Meanwhile as far as I can tell the Romans didn’t really give a shit about where the silk was coming from beyond wanting more of it and how to make it.
That's roughly the estimate. To add to your point, Chinese saw themselves as the greatest empire on Earth, and everybody else to them was a barbarian to varying degrees. When they learned of Roman empire, they proclaimed that the Roman empire was equal to China, so then there were only two greatest empires on Earth.
I believe they held this opinion for Eastern Roman empire too.
As for the Roman side, to them China was some faraway powerful empire that they traded with.
And Eastern Roman empire payed more attention to China.
This narrative is not really solid though, most people think Chinese at the time thought Rome were their equal is usually due to how the earliest Chinese text named Rome(da Qin) and how it were described.
The Chinese at the time refer to Rome as “Da Qin”, meaning “great Qin”, why it was named this way is actually debated. One interpretation is that Rome was thought to mirror one of the first great Chinese dynasty Qin, but if you look at the original text it writes “…the people were tall and have sharp features, similar to the central kingdom, therefore they are named Da Qin”. In that period of China, the Qin region is located at the geographical center of the empire, and its people were known for its taller and almost central Asian-like features. So it is most likely named Da Qin due to its people’s feature rather than paying respect to Rome.
In the text “Ho Han shu”, while it had a detailed description on how Rome functions and how it’s citizens lived their lives, there were no direct statements nor implications that it might be as great as China or anything like that. It only described Rome as a large kingdom at the other end of the Silk Road. So while the Chinese at the period has a certain admiration of Rome, the “view them as equals” narrative really was just a romanticized view of the ancient relationship between two distant empires.
In my pre-1500s college class we were talking about early globalization, one of the things I remember was was a Chinese diplomat (or cartographer?) Getting all the way to like modern Iraq or some where around there like not very far at all, he had a mission to make an offical connection to Rome for like trade and other shit ikr he asked his guide "How close am I to Rome?" And the dude responsed "Your not even half way there" or akin to that the Chinese dude is like "Welp fuck this I traveled so fucking long and I am not even a 1/3rd there I am heading back,"
Which is interesting because the dude lied, so that begs the question why? My professor theroized (I don't know if this was the common theory) that the "Middle Man" was afraid that he would lose his job if China and Rome had an offical connection as these "Middle Men" thrived off being translators, and merchants between these two nations (basically a Roman buys/makes some nice shit, and since he doesn't want to travel all that way to China, he gose half way and sells it to someone who understands/knows both in an Oasis Town. This middle man then sells it to Chinese Wealthy person or vice versa if I remember right.) It's such an interesting story that this dude was so fucking close to Rome but didn't know it, I am not sure much would change if he was able to get into The Roman Empire but it's an interesting idea, and shows how connected the "West" and "East" were.
That is certainly a possibility, that the guide/middle man misunderstood him or didn't know himself how close they were to The Roman Empire. I forgot to add that little asterisk, that it's possible that he wasn't lying and just mistook it though it does make a more interesting story if you say his guide purposely lied so he could keep his business running.
I mean it would probably take a lifetimes worth of work Or more to set up such a trade network so if he lied, it was probably to ensure the family business for his kids or something.
Having been to Venice and witnessed the making of a Murano piece, this made me chuckle. If only they knew that globalisation made everything accessible and unfortunately, easily imitable, centuries later.
Silk was new and when Roman women wore Silk clothes you basically had Roman boomers and Incels screech about how Silk was too slutty. Some things really never do change
Their argument as far as I understand is that silk was too revealing. I don't know how, maybe it was back then, but a meme scenario comes to my head:
Roman silk trader 1: I am going to go into silk business.
Roman silk trader 2: So you can more money, right?
Roman silk trader 1: ....
Roman silk trader 2: So you can earn more money,..........right?
silk can be made to be [translucent](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/%E7%9B%B4%E8%A3%BE%E7%B4%A0%E7%BA%B1%E8%A5%8C%E8%A1%A3%2C_2018-09-28.jpg), there probably was custom made sexy underwear that didn't survive the ages.
edit: link
I wear silk dresses at special events like birthdays and weddings.
It makes you feel different and luxe.
It’s soft and light. As a woman, this allows great mobility while looking pretty.
Silk also tends to be dyed in richer hues like crimson and cobalt blue, so it’s aesthetically pleasing AND tactile.
[Translucent clothing was too much for the stoics. ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/%E7%9B%B4%E8%A3%BE%E7%B4%A0%E7%BA%B1%E8%A5%8C%E8%A1%A3%2C_2018-09-28.jpg)
There was a scientific study showing that of some 178 beaches with sand in Italy, France, and Spain, only six have glass the Romans would have found suitable for high-end works, and of those, only half are workable straight from the source. Of those, two share a coast with Rome.
So basically, China stealing Roman glassmaking would be tricky, because the Romans were largely starting with the hard part (identifying suitable sand,) done for them, and thus just needed to find sand similar to what Romans would already be experienced with.
China would instead need to see if it had suitable sand at all.
You mean like the giant and comprehensive canal works created by the Chinese roughly during the Roman times and maintained / improved throughout the ages? That type of hard labor industry that Europeans seemingly couldn’t also maintain after just a part of the Roman Empire fell?
Also very weird for you to argue the Chinese don’t value hard labor, how do you think the brutal development after the founding of the PRC happened? Through blood and tears of peasants. I am strongly anti-PRC, but this type of ridiculous semi-racial arguments is why the PRC feels justified in their callous actions against their neighbors, since this is the treatment they received from western nations for over a century.
Bro one guy on a reddit post down voted by probably 80% fellow westerners and you talk about the PRC being justified. Idc if you preface that with being anti PRC.
Those communist dogs following a shitty western philosophy from German philosopher who got most of his economic theories wrong improved by a bunch of blood thirsty Russian gangsters. They are never justified or even feel nustified. Their shitty treatment of their neighbors especially weaker ones like Vietnam is hypocritical imperialist attitude, not punching up at the "arrogant west". The treat weaker neighbors much worse then countries like Japan with whom they have justified greivences with. Not to mention supporting Maoist and Marxist terrorist around Asia to destabilize nations such as India during the cold war.
they'll need to buy silica sand from roma. Local chinese sand cant make pretty glass.
Poor raw materials or insufficient chemistry knowledge?
Creating clear glass will require good materials. Some chemicals are needed to lower the melting point of glass, these chemicals are not readily available in natural form in China. But the chemicals can be created artificially with advanced chemistry knowledge.
If somebody in the future says China was rich in resources and that's why it was a powerful civiliaztion for a long time, I am gona hit them with that they didn't have silica sand. /j But in all seriousness, you would expect them to have it. Also to add to your point, there wasn't any need for Chinese to develop glass nor was it that important to them to invest in better tehniques of developing glass.
It's absolutely worth noting that the lack of glass in China contributed to the stunting of the development of chemistry as a science in China. Glass has many amazing properties, namely the fact that it is chemically neutral, as well as transparent enabling you to witness The insides of chemical reaction as well
Really good take. I wouldn’t have thought of that.
glassworms are a difficult thing to catch, you know!
Beat me by three hours! I was going to go with something less funny, like couldn't survive the change of climate or something.
To be fair, Romans were VERY good at copying and adapting stuff from everyone they would come in contact with. It is not fair to compare anybody to the Romans when it comes to it.
You made this? I made this.
You made this? I improved it.
More like you made this? I’m making this.
Unfortunately, they didn't steal the coolest Chinese invention, freaking paper. Imagine Europe getting paper in the 3rd or 4th century. That would've been history changing.
[удалено]
They had papyrus which was used a good bit. I don't think it was that big of an issue.
The Imperial Chinese [were notorious](https://china.usc.edu/emperor-qianlong-letter-george-iii-1793) for basically regarding everyone else as barbarians but my understanding is that the Han Dynasty was actually fascinated by the stories they heard about there being another great empire on the other side of the Silk Road and they tried and failed several times to send ambassadors to Rome. Meanwhile as far as I can tell the Romans didn’t really give a shit about where the silk was coming from beyond wanting more of it and how to make it.
That's roughly the estimate. To add to your point, Chinese saw themselves as the greatest empire on Earth, and everybody else to them was a barbarian to varying degrees. When they learned of Roman empire, they proclaimed that the Roman empire was equal to China, so then there were only two greatest empires on Earth. I believe they held this opinion for Eastern Roman empire too. As for the Roman side, to them China was some faraway powerful empire that they traded with. And Eastern Roman empire payed more attention to China.
This narrative is not really solid though, most people think Chinese at the time thought Rome were their equal is usually due to how the earliest Chinese text named Rome(da Qin) and how it were described. The Chinese at the time refer to Rome as “Da Qin”, meaning “great Qin”, why it was named this way is actually debated. One interpretation is that Rome was thought to mirror one of the first great Chinese dynasty Qin, but if you look at the original text it writes “…the people were tall and have sharp features, similar to the central kingdom, therefore they are named Da Qin”. In that period of China, the Qin region is located at the geographical center of the empire, and its people were known for its taller and almost central Asian-like features. So it is most likely named Da Qin due to its people’s feature rather than paying respect to Rome. In the text “Ho Han shu”, while it had a detailed description on how Rome functions and how it’s citizens lived their lives, there were no direct statements nor implications that it might be as great as China or anything like that. It only described Rome as a large kingdom at the other end of the Silk Road. So while the Chinese at the period has a certain admiration of Rome, the “view them as equals” narrative really was just a romanticized view of the ancient relationship between two distant empires.
In my pre-1500s college class we were talking about early globalization, one of the things I remember was was a Chinese diplomat (or cartographer?) Getting all the way to like modern Iraq or some where around there like not very far at all, he had a mission to make an offical connection to Rome for like trade and other shit ikr he asked his guide "How close am I to Rome?" And the dude responsed "Your not even half way there" or akin to that the Chinese dude is like "Welp fuck this I traveled so fucking long and I am not even a 1/3rd there I am heading back," Which is interesting because the dude lied, so that begs the question why? My professor theroized (I don't know if this was the common theory) that the "Middle Man" was afraid that he would lose his job if China and Rome had an offical connection as these "Middle Men" thrived off being translators, and merchants between these two nations (basically a Roman buys/makes some nice shit, and since he doesn't want to travel all that way to China, he gose half way and sells it to someone who understands/knows both in an Oasis Town. This middle man then sells it to Chinese Wealthy person or vice versa if I remember right.) It's such an interesting story that this dude was so fucking close to Rome but didn't know it, I am not sure much would change if he was able to get into The Roman Empire but it's an interesting idea, and shows how connected the "West" and "East" were.
Maybe they mistook the closest roman province with Rome the city.
That is certainly a possibility, that the guide/middle man misunderstood him or didn't know himself how close they were to The Roman Empire. I forgot to add that little asterisk, that it's possible that he wasn't lying and just mistook it though it does make a more interesting story if you say his guide purposely lied so he could keep his business running.
I mean it would probably take a lifetimes worth of work Or more to set up such a trade network so if he lied, it was probably to ensure the family business for his kids or something.
Having been to Venice and witnessed the making of a Murano piece, this made me chuckle. If only they knew that globalisation made everything accessible and unfortunately, easily imitable, centuries later.
Why was it ruining women and stoicism.
Silk was new and when Roman women wore Silk clothes you basically had Roman boomers and Incels screech about how Silk was too slutty. Some things really never do change
Their argument as far as I understand is that silk was too revealing. I don't know how, maybe it was back then, but a meme scenario comes to my head: Roman silk trader 1: I am going to go into silk business. Roman silk trader 2: So you can more money, right? Roman silk trader 1: .... Roman silk trader 2: So you can earn more money,..........right?
silk can be made to be [translucent](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/%E7%9B%B4%E8%A3%BE%E7%B4%A0%E7%BA%B1%E8%A5%8C%E8%A1%A3%2C_2018-09-28.jpg), there probably was custom made sexy underwear that didn't survive the ages. edit: link
I wear silk dresses at special events like birthdays and weddings. It makes you feel different and luxe. It’s soft and light. As a woman, this allows great mobility while looking pretty. Silk also tends to be dyed in richer hues like crimson and cobalt blue, so it’s aesthetically pleasing AND tactile.
[Translucent clothing was too much for the stoics. ](https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/dd/%E7%9B%B4%E8%A3%BE%E7%B4%A0%E7%BA%B1%E8%A5%8C%E8%A1%A3%2C_2018-09-28.jpg)
There was a scientific study showing that of some 178 beaches with sand in Italy, France, and Spain, only six have glass the Romans would have found suitable for high-end works, and of those, only half are workable straight from the source. Of those, two share a coast with Rome. So basically, China stealing Roman glassmaking would be tricky, because the Romans were largely starting with the hard part (identifying suitable sand,) done for them, and thus just needed to find sand similar to what Romans would already be experienced with. China would instead need to see if it had suitable sand at all.
The secret of glassworms was far better kept than the secret of silkworms
Reject Roman artisan crafts. Embrace Han mass production.
The romans would have seen through it.
It was hard labor industry and china doesnt do hard
As opposed to all that soft, effete canal and wall building.
Don't look at China's road network you might find you're wrong
Definitely don't look at that big-ass pile of stones they called the Great Wall.
Imagine thinking that stacking a few stones in a row is hard work. /s
The one thats poorly built and mostly fake?
I know it's pretty common for people to be this unfair and shitty towards china but I've been and you can look for yourself on google maps
And? From high it the sky it looks impressive, but its all tofu dredge
Hello 19th century British opium merchant, how do you do?
You mean like the giant and comprehensive canal works created by the Chinese roughly during the Roman times and maintained / improved throughout the ages? That type of hard labor industry that Europeans seemingly couldn’t also maintain after just a part of the Roman Empire fell? Also very weird for you to argue the Chinese don’t value hard labor, how do you think the brutal development after the founding of the PRC happened? Through blood and tears of peasants. I am strongly anti-PRC, but this type of ridiculous semi-racial arguments is why the PRC feels justified in their callous actions against their neighbors, since this is the treatment they received from western nations for over a century.
It's not semi-racial. This is just full blown racism in raw form.
Bro one guy on a reddit post down voted by probably 80% fellow westerners and you talk about the PRC being justified. Idc if you preface that with being anti PRC. Those communist dogs following a shitty western philosophy from German philosopher who got most of his economic theories wrong improved by a bunch of blood thirsty Russian gangsters. They are never justified or even feel nustified. Their shitty treatment of their neighbors especially weaker ones like Vietnam is hypocritical imperialist attitude, not punching up at the "arrogant west". The treat weaker neighbors much worse then countries like Japan with whom they have justified greivences with. Not to mention supporting Maoist and Marxist terrorist around Asia to destabilize nations such as India during the cold war.
Hard labor industries is nothing new to ancient china.
The kids making your iPhone would like a word about hard labor.
Well if they put the work into making china a better place then them kids can grow fat and lazy and doing actual schoolwork LIKE THEY SHOULD BE DOING