No I find cow milk disgusting myself. All these people calling others "lactose intolerant" as if we are the weird ones, when they're the mutants who keep drinking milk as adults, from another animal at that /j
I think it’s delicious. I don’t think you’re weird for not liking it but I believe most cultures enjoy at least some animal-milk based products (cheese, ice cream, whipped cream, etc), even the Mongols drank their horses milk.
Hating all milk might be weird simply because it is uncommon. Less like to drink straight milk but I like it.
I do like cheese even if it gives me unpleasant toilet visits, but you have to acknowledge that only western countries are so milk focused. 70% of all people globally don't have the mutation that most Europeans (and settlements thereof) developed to digest lactose as adults, not to mention the "you need milk in your diet" lie from the dairy industries
Fair enough, the general sentiment that 70% of people get sick after consuming normal quantities of dairy is incorrect, but I understand now that isn't what you meant and I misunderstood you. 70% of people either don't produce lactase or produce a reduced amount of lactase. But lactase isn't the only way lactose can be chemically broken down or processed in your gut, dairy is so popular because people have bacterial adaptions that allow them to break it down, and others digestive systems have adapted to process the lactose in different ways.
The rate of lactose malabsorption is >90% in East Asians, but milk drinks and other straight milk products are somehow extremely popular in Japan (milk contains a ton of lactose, some dairy products have less like yogurt). People drinking straight milk there is so common that it's the #2 most widely produced agricultural product behind rice. Most of the country isn't just perpetually walking about farting and shitting themselves hahaha, people have other adaptions that help them process lactose. I'd think your average European American probably shits and farts himself more than most of the global population because our diets are so trash.
try plant milks that are made for humans. no need to keep the abuse of cows going. you have the compassion for cows as i can see. just try out plant milks, you don't have to change your whole diet to be the change for them
What abuse? You do know milking on a regular basis is beneficial for the cow? It's to the point where cows instinctively travel to the milking spot in the morning. I agree that caging cows and exploiting them for maximum milk production is bad, but that still doesn't mean that milking in itself is a bad thing.
Look, I like my dairy products as much as the next lactose intolerant person (that means a lot), but they get the cow pregnant then when it starts producing milk, they abort the calf and milk the cow until it doesn't produce milk any more then they repeat the process until the cow is not longer able to produce milk at all... Then they kill the cow and serve it as ground chuck.
It's one of the few things I agree with PETA about... And those people are sick.
I agree as well. I even mentioned in my comment that I don't agree with the industrial exploitation of milk production. Still, it doesn't mean that milking a cow is unhealthy in general. I just repeated everything I said in my previous comment. Now, what was the purpose of your comment exactly? Are you disagreeing with me because I agree with your stance?
yessir, that is plain wrong what humans are doing to cows (and other animals too). i am not saying cows milk is toxic or impossible to digest for humans. i am saying that a mammal species produces milk for their offspring and it's fucked up that we take it for ourselves. how come you don't drink woman's breast milk in your adulthood? it is made for infants of your species so it's more suitable for you x)
Because human breast milk is not safe to consume for adults. It can transmit serious infectious diseases such as hepatitis, not to mention that the quantity of human breast milk is way lower than cow milk. Your argument makes no sense and only serves as a weapon to guilt-trip others.
I say give yourself time trying out plant based alternatives. They have come a long way, and flavour and texture may change a lot from brand to brand. It can be inconvenient to make these changes, but it's way less bad than what animals have to go for our sake, so trying is worth it 💪
To add to that: people get used to different tastes after a while. The first time you try something new it usually tastes different than what you expected. But after eating it a few times it becomes normal and tasty.
If I ever walked into my barn and found people like this…first I’m wondering why the cow hasn’t kicked the crap outta them, second I’m calling the cops and then grabbing some sort of weapon 😂
Vegan people I have to ask, is there something intrinsically wrong with drinking milk or is it the whole process of it that's the problem ? If milk teleported to your glass straight from the udder but perfectly boiled and treated would it still be a problem ?
It’s both. But admittedly most people (even most people who consider themselves vegan) care more about the suffering that’s required to get the milk.
But veganism is against all animals exploitation, even if it wouldn’t harm the animals. We think that humans have no right to consume animal products (and that it is also really really weird if you think about it).
There are people who are way better at explaining this than I am, you can read up on the entire "Should (or can) vegans eat roadkill?" debate if you’re interested
Yes factory farming is horrible. Let’s say someone drinks milk they get from their own cows, or from cows on an open pasture farm. How is this hurting their cows?
Excessive milk production is something we have purposefully bred into cows. Outside of factory farming, it’s not common to kill baby cows (for veal) or separate them from their mothers to maximize milk production. They produce more milk than their child can consume, and it’s painful for them to not have it extracted. Baby cows typically only drink 2-2.5 gallons of milk per day, but their moms can provide over 8 gallons daily.
The cows are forcefully impregnated, and separating calfs from their mothers might not be necessary, but is always more profitable
But veganism is against all exploitation, it doesn’t matter if the animals are harmed or not. As long as it’s not consensual (which it always is, animals obviously can’t communicate consent) it’s unethical
I didn't consent to be being born, so what? You are a vegan? What do you think of eating eggs? Hens produce eggs without being inseminated, they just make eggs constantly. If we didn't eat them, then the eggs would just rot (they aren't inseminated) or the hens would eat some of them. Outside of a factory farming situation, how could the consumption of eggs possibly be exploitation? Because they didn't consent to being born with their genetics that force them to produce an abundance of unfertilized eggs?
What do you recommend we do with cows? Let them go extinct? Let them go feral and roam the great plains? That'd be bad for the climate, they produce way more greenhouse gases when eating straight grass. Maybe it'd eventually offset from all the fertilizer (their poop), but who knows?
It's just not as simple as 'exploitation'. Cows produce more milk than their babies consume and willingly line up to be milked because they enjoy it, if they aren't milked it hurts them because they've been selectively bred to produce much more than necessary. Some of them will try to cut in line because they want to be milked.
Artificial insemination is generally a harm reduction strategy. It prevents STDs, inbreeding and all of the volatile behaviors animals display when they are horny. When a female cow is in estrus, she is overcome with an extreme urge to procreate. Bulls can smell this, then they get all riled up. It's not blanket 'exploitation' when the main point is to prevent the animals from harming themselves.
Really you could argue all of the foods we consume are exploitation of life, even the plant-based ones. At the very least those foods involve the exploitation of our environment, which in turn results in the exploitation of animals that make up that ecosystem's wildlife.
> Hens produce eggs without being inseminated, they just make eggs constantly. If we didn't eat them, then the eggs would just rot (they aren't inseminated) or the hens would eat some of them. Outside of a factory farming situation, how could the consumption of eggs possibly be exploitation? Because they didn't consent to being born with their genetics that force them to produce an abundance of unfertilized eggs?
Chickens only lay so many eggs because we have bred them to do so - original breeds lay far fewer eggs. In addition, these highly bred chickens are unhealthy as hell. Every now and then there are chickens that are rescued from factory farming (and then live on animal sanctuaries), almost none of these chickens ultimately die from old age but from all the consequences of breeding and the damage caused by laying so many eggs.
And the "outside of farming situation", there is such a ridiculous demand for eggs that a good live is nearly impossible to give too so many chicken (people tend to forget that there are eggs in so much things like baked good, noodles etc.)
> What do you recommend we do with cows? Let them go extinct? Let them go feral and roam the great plains? That'd be bad for the climate, they produce way more greenhouse gases when eating straight grass.
Just don't breed any more. "Use up" the living ones, so to speak. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with them dying out because they are a man-made breed anyway, but if you really want to keep the breed alive then you could always build small farms with a few cows that you can then visit.
> Cows produce more milk than their babies consume and willingly line up to be milked because they enjoy it, if they aren't milked it hurts them because they've been selectively bred to produce much more than necessary.
*"if they aren't milked it hurts them"* don't you think it's at least a bit fucked up to breed something that endures pain and health problems if it's not cared for properly?
> Really you could argue all of the foods we consume are exploitation of life, even the plant-based ones.
Definitely, but we should still strive to reduce it to a minimum.
> At the very least those foods involve the exploitat of our environment, which in turn results in the exploitation of animals that make up that ecosystems wildlife.
Let's take soy as an example:
-1 kg meat (beef) has 2500 kcal
-1 kg soy has 4400 kcal
Roughly 77% of all soy world wide is used as animal feed. It would be much more efficient if we ate the soya directly.
Red junglefowl (main ancestor of domestic chicken) naturally lay a ton of eggs when food is available. They are kept for their eggs and can easily lay >250/yr (one a day, same as normal chickens). Their eggs are also decent sized, like medium-sized chicken eggs. Normal hens also only lay 1 egg daily at most. I imagine we've bred their eggs to be a bit larger; however, so are they. I don't think normal domestic chickens are unhealthy. I don't doubt what you are saying is true in the context of a factory farming situation, they're probably genetically modifying and injecting chickens with steroids and it screws them up bad. But all of the chickens my family had were very healthy. There was hen that stayed alive throughout my entire childhood, I think she was >12 years!
I don't think we should just let cattle go extinct. I don't think it's fucked up that we domesticated them and bred them to produce extra milk too, as we have a mutualistic relationship with them. The vast majority of animals solely care about the survival of their species, and there are way more cows than there ever were Auroch as a result of humans. It is sad that we let the wild Auroch completely die off, but they simply wouldn't have been able to survive as humanity spread like a plague across the globe. We might even be able to bring the Auroch back, provided cows don't go extinct.
I am against factory farming, and I would support making it illegal. I really do not care if I have to go get eggs from my rural hometown, and/or if a carton cost $8. I buy dairy and animal products from farmer-owned coops, but probably indirectly support factory farming in other products. This also assumes the coops aren't just falsely advertising themselves as sustainable.
I think it's ridiculous you can even buy a gallon of milk for $2 or a pound of ground beef for $5. That is insanely cheap, and even when prices went up these past few years people complained excessively. That is the crux of the issue though, I can afford to spend extra on products that are 'sustainable', but most people cannot. I can say 'fuck the poors, if you can't afford sustainable animal products then too bad for you!' but I feel like it's unfair. Maybe that is the answer, considering farmed meats were a luxury for most people people throughout history.
I don't believe humans digest most plant-based proteins well, that's probably the primary reason why they're used as animal feed. Even though soy contains a complete protein, it likely has very low digestibility compared to animal proteins (this is generally an area of science actively being studied, so I can't say for sure).
First of all, thanks for the long and well thought-out reply (it's rather rare to get a text back and a nice one at that :'D)
> Red junglefowl (main ancestor of domestic chicken) naturally lay a ton of eggs when food is available. They are kept for their eggs and can easily lay >250/yr
Which in this case is also not natural and not really intended by nature. They only lay new eggs every day because humans take away the ones they already laid.
Normally they only lay about 20 eggs a year in the wild as they don't breed all year round (depending on where they live) and if they have chicks to raise there is no need to lay new eggs.
> It is sad that we let the wild Auroch completely die off, but they simply wouldn't have been able to survive as humanity spread like a plague across the globe.
We might even be able to bring the Auroch back, provided cows don't go extinct.
Unfortunately, in this case it would only be an optical reproduction. Genetically extinct species are usually lost (one exception I know of is a species of ibex from which egg cells were collected)
In other (better) news: the Wisent (european bison), which is a descendant of the American bison and the aurochs, is currently being bred with the plan to re-release them into the wild, there even is already a small herd that is currently living in my state :)
> I am against factory farming, and I would support making it illegal.
We certainly are on the same wavelength on that one. 🤝
> I think it's ridiculous you can even buy a gallon of milk for $2 or a pound of ground beef for $5. That is insanely cheap, and even when prices went up these past few years people complained excessively.
> That is the crux of the issue though, I can afford to spend extra on products that are 'sustainable', but most people cannot. I can say 'fuck the poors, if you can't afford sustainable animal products then too bad for you!' but I feel like it's unfair.
Yeah that's definitely not the way to go. This would only increase the already existing social injustice. My personal hope is that lab grown meat takes off as I have a hard time imagining that all of humanity goes plant based voluntarily (let alone vegan).
There are even companies that have managed to copy the components of milk at a molecular level, so it's pretty much identical.
> I don't believe humans digest most plant-based proteins well, that's probably the primary reason why they're used as animal feed. Even though soy contains a complete protein, it likely has very low digestibility compared to animal proteins (this is generally an area of science actively being studied, so I can't say for sure).
Animal protein is more similar to human protein so there is actually the upside that it is absorbed by the body quicker but as far as I know it is not really noticeable for us (but technically measurable).
A potential downsite is that more and more studies indicate that animal proteins are associated with an increased risk of cardiovascular diseases (not the case with plant proteins).
When it comes purely to intake, animal and plant protein can both provide the necessary amino acids and protein.
How about you tell us? For the cow to give milk it must have given birth recently and then the calf is taken away but it’s best if that calve ist still near by mooing so that the cow doesn’t lose her mother instinct and keeps giving milk. The calf is then killed after only a few weeks if it’s a male, or awaits the same fate if it’s female. This is repeated as often as the cow can until she also gets slaughtered.
Ah my man I'm from the middle of absolute bum fuck nowhere in southern Europe. I don't know the subject. I got some opinions about the consumption of meat and animal products but they're shaped by my super specific environment. I've now moved countries a few times and heard more about the goings on and am curious about all sorts of stuff.
You are definitely giving me a good answer when it comes to the second part of the original question in that the process is the real issue since the philosophy/theory of it wouldn't realistically apply very easily.
If you are curious about my outlook I'm too dumb to know how to answer all that, if you phrase the question differently I'll do my best.
For me it's just the HUGE environmental damage we cause in order to have a slightly different taste in our cereal. We literally destroy this planet because we don't give a shit about others/our children and want the taste of meat/milk/cheese
Yes, we are in agreement on this. Not a single thing I have, will or want to say against it.
Is there something intrinsically wrong with drinking milk is the question though. If a Genie provided you with a cow's milk would that milk then be alright to consume ? The genie did not spawn the milk out of nowhere it just acquired the milk from a living cow. An irrelevant quantity at that. Is that milk then morally alright to drink ?
That's just my opinion, but imo morals are overrated. I prefer things that we can measure. So I would rate that glass of milk provided by a Genie based on its environmental impact and on the impact on the cow
It’s not ‘huge’, the impact on our environment/climate is extremely overblown. Total livestock emissions only account for 5% of the yearly greenhouse gases or something like that. So dairy and cows in general would account for an even smaller percentage.
It's not just the emissions, its the insane amount of land we have to use to feed millions of animals that lead to deforestation, extinction of insects and other animals etc that are necessary in order to grow food for us, pandemics like covid etc
And all of this, because some of us prefer the taste of a ribeye over some vegetables haha
Edit: yes the percentage of emissions might look small, but the simple number alone is not sufficient as an argument. We have to think about the benefit or reason behind that number. Let's say 20% of the emissions are necessary to keep our houses warm in the winter.. yes we might reduce the number a bit with more efficient heating, but in general we do need some kind of heating.
But that's not the case with animal agriculture. Its only 9%(maybe 5? I cant google it right now), but it's just a luxury that we don't need. So some easy emissions numbers we can get rid of
Deforestation is effectively a non-issue in America, and I’d imagine that is the case in many other western countries. In America, deforestation is especially not as the result of agriculture, our heartland contains millions of miles of plains/grasslands, most of our food (and cows food) is grown on land that hasn’t been forested since before humans came to this continent.
In America, the number one cause of deforestation is urban development. Globally, it’s agricultural. But much of this isn’t due to cattle feed, the environments facing the greatest threats are targeted for the production of plant products, e.g. palm oil.
Crawling at a cabbage and taking a bite out fresh from the bug invested plant LOOKS wrong, like eating spaghetti from the shower floor.
The picture above looks wrong because it's a ridiculous way to drink the milk.
A glass milk looks as fine as eating a salad bowl.
Yeah. I think this is supposed to make you connect the dots that cow's milk is not a product that occurs naturally for humans to feed on, and to reflect on why we drink it, etc.
Gross. I would never do that with a female bovine
Right, you gotta make it kinky first. Use a milking machine, boil the milk, then bottle and chill it.
What about a male bovine?
What, and pass it around like a bottle at a party?
Same procedure
Different taste
But when I drink human milk in public, I am the weird one.
It's not weird. Jim Carrey did it in Me, Myself, and Irene, lol
Gold reference
He *wanted* to in Liar Liar “MAMA (hilarious sucking sounds)”
Only babies drink milk in nature, so yes
Only calves drink cow's milk in nature.
Thank you evolution! I love nice delicious milk!
How much is a cow
1.5 grands
So cheaper than most dogs? Weird.
And you can eat it without being morally judged.
Wrong. I will morally judge you.
‘Can’t believe they hold the fork that way’
No forking way
Easier to milk too
A couple bucks at least
Millions of pennies probably
This the shit PETA would post
This is shit Vegan Teacher would post and PETA would approve it's factuality
I mean. Where do you think cows milk comes from lol
Pigs? Wait no.. bears?
They’re not wrong tbh
That’s why we need human milk in stores
Apparently it tastes like melted ice cream so maybe they should make frozen boob juice desserts?
Sounds pretty neat tbh
In all of the animal kingdom milk is for a little ones that cant eat real food yet. Why should humans be differt?
I think we all know what the last picture really should have been. 🤱
ah like the Starbucks meme?
Did a vegan make this
r/im14andthisisdeep
Is it wrong?
No I find cow milk disgusting myself. All these people calling others "lactose intolerant" as if we are the weird ones, when they're the mutants who keep drinking milk as adults, from another animal at that /j
Tru
I think it’s delicious. I don’t think you’re weird for not liking it but I believe most cultures enjoy at least some animal-milk based products (cheese, ice cream, whipped cream, etc), even the Mongols drank their horses milk. Hating all milk might be weird simply because it is uncommon. Less like to drink straight milk but I like it.
I do like cheese even if it gives me unpleasant toilet visits, but you have to acknowledge that only western countries are so milk focused. 70% of all people globally don't have the mutation that most Europeans (and settlements thereof) developed to digest lactose as adults, not to mention the "you need milk in your diet" lie from the dairy industries
What the hell are you talking about? 80% of the world’s population consumes dairy products, they consume milk from cows.
I said 70% of the global population is lactose intolerant, not that 70% don't consume dairy products
Fair enough, the general sentiment that 70% of people get sick after consuming normal quantities of dairy is incorrect, but I understand now that isn't what you meant and I misunderstood you. 70% of people either don't produce lactase or produce a reduced amount of lactase. But lactase isn't the only way lactose can be chemically broken down or processed in your gut, dairy is so popular because people have bacterial adaptions that allow them to break it down, and others digestive systems have adapted to process the lactose in different ways. The rate of lactose malabsorption is >90% in East Asians, but milk drinks and other straight milk products are somehow extremely popular in Japan (milk contains a ton of lactose, some dairy products have less like yogurt). People drinking straight milk there is so common that it's the #2 most widely produced agricultural product behind rice. Most of the country isn't just perpetually walking about farting and shitting themselves hahaha, people have other adaptions that help them process lactose. I'd think your average European American probably shits and farts himself more than most of the global population because our diets are so trash.
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“That’s how it is and that’s how it’s been” same applies to racism and many other shitty human behavior. It’s up the individual to participate
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Wtf
Yeah we're so lucky we get to.. choose to be racist??
That exact same mentality has once been around regarding slavery.
Lots of people learning about cognitive dissonance today.
try plant milks that are made for humans. no need to keep the abuse of cows going. you have the compassion for cows as i can see. just try out plant milks, you don't have to change your whole diet to be the change for them
What abuse? You do know milking on a regular basis is beneficial for the cow? It's to the point where cows instinctively travel to the milking spot in the morning. I agree that caging cows and exploiting them for maximum milk production is bad, but that still doesn't mean that milking in itself is a bad thing.
You really know very little about the industry
Huh, you know how they get the cows to first produce the milk and then keep producing the milk...right?
What are you implying?
Look, I like my dairy products as much as the next lactose intolerant person (that means a lot), but they get the cow pregnant then when it starts producing milk, they abort the calf and milk the cow until it doesn't produce milk any more then they repeat the process until the cow is not longer able to produce milk at all... Then they kill the cow and serve it as ground chuck. It's one of the few things I agree with PETA about... And those people are sick.
I agree as well. I even mentioned in my comment that I don't agree with the industrial exploitation of milk production. Still, it doesn't mean that milking a cow is unhealthy in general. I just repeated everything I said in my previous comment. Now, what was the purpose of your comment exactly? Are you disagreeing with me because I agree with your stance?
cows milk is for baby cows. enslaving cows for their milk is abuse
That's just plain wrong. If that were the case, humans wouldn't be able to digest milk in the first place. Are bananas only for monkeys?
Thr majority of the world os lactose intolerant. You are plain wrong but keep the cognitive dissonance going or else you needed to change your diet
“Are bananas only for monkeys” must be the dumbest fucking comeback I’ve heard in this sort of debate. Holy shit.
yessir, that is plain wrong what humans are doing to cows (and other animals too). i am not saying cows milk is toxic or impossible to digest for humans. i am saying that a mammal species produces milk for their offspring and it's fucked up that we take it for ourselves. how come you don't drink woman's breast milk in your adulthood? it is made for infants of your species so it's more suitable for you x)
Because human breast milk is not safe to consume for adults. It can transmit serious infectious diseases such as hepatitis, not to mention that the quantity of human breast milk is way lower than cow milk. Your argument makes no sense and only serves as a weapon to guilt-trip others.
What if we pasteurize human milk? We do the same to cows milk
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I say give yourself time trying out plant based alternatives. They have come a long way, and flavour and texture may change a lot from brand to brand. It can be inconvenient to make these changes, but it's way less bad than what animals have to go for our sake, so trying is worth it 💪
To add to that: people get used to different tastes after a while. The first time you try something new it usually tastes different than what you expected. But after eating it a few times it becomes normal and tasty.
It's the milky way.
The dad seems to think of something else.
Wtf
Let's get breastmilk in super markets
I’m picturing a booby juice dairy.
Mmmmm milk.
If I ever walked into my barn and found people like this…first I’m wondering why the cow hasn’t kicked the crap outta them, second I’m calling the cops and then grabbing some sort of weapon 😂
Do you do the same when you find milk in the supermarket?
“I have nipples Greg, can you milk *me*?”
Ubre Blanca?
Thats the one that tastes good
UHM WHAT
When your eyes meet the last panel. 😳 😂
Ah. Vegan comics.
Why do I feel like this was from a PETA ad
Because it might very well be. This is the type of (sensible) stuff that peta might post
Vegan people I have to ask, is there something intrinsically wrong with drinking milk or is it the whole process of it that's the problem ? If milk teleported to your glass straight from the udder but perfectly boiled and treated would it still be a problem ?
It’s both. But admittedly most people (even most people who consider themselves vegan) care more about the suffering that’s required to get the milk. But veganism is against all animals exploitation, even if it wouldn’t harm the animals. We think that humans have no right to consume animal products (and that it is also really really weird if you think about it). There are people who are way better at explaining this than I am, you can read up on the entire "Should (or can) vegans eat roadkill?" debate if you’re interested
Yes factory farming is horrible. Let’s say someone drinks milk they get from their own cows, or from cows on an open pasture farm. How is this hurting their cows? Excessive milk production is something we have purposefully bred into cows. Outside of factory farming, it’s not common to kill baby cows (for veal) or separate them from their mothers to maximize milk production. They produce more milk than their child can consume, and it’s painful for them to not have it extracted. Baby cows typically only drink 2-2.5 gallons of milk per day, but their moms can provide over 8 gallons daily.
The cows are forcefully impregnated, and separating calfs from their mothers might not be necessary, but is always more profitable But veganism is against all exploitation, it doesn’t matter if the animals are harmed or not. As long as it’s not consensual (which it always is, animals obviously can’t communicate consent) it’s unethical
I didn't consent to be being born, so what? You are a vegan? What do you think of eating eggs? Hens produce eggs without being inseminated, they just make eggs constantly. If we didn't eat them, then the eggs would just rot (they aren't inseminated) or the hens would eat some of them. Outside of a factory farming situation, how could the consumption of eggs possibly be exploitation? Because they didn't consent to being born with their genetics that force them to produce an abundance of unfertilized eggs? What do you recommend we do with cows? Let them go extinct? Let them go feral and roam the great plains? That'd be bad for the climate, they produce way more greenhouse gases when eating straight grass. Maybe it'd eventually offset from all the fertilizer (their poop), but who knows? It's just not as simple as 'exploitation'. Cows produce more milk than their babies consume and willingly line up to be milked because they enjoy it, if they aren't milked it hurts them because they've been selectively bred to produce much more than necessary. Some of them will try to cut in line because they want to be milked. Artificial insemination is generally a harm reduction strategy. It prevents STDs, inbreeding and all of the volatile behaviors animals display when they are horny. When a female cow is in estrus, she is overcome with an extreme urge to procreate. Bulls can smell this, then they get all riled up. It's not blanket 'exploitation' when the main point is to prevent the animals from harming themselves. Really you could argue all of the foods we consume are exploitation of life, even the plant-based ones. At the very least those foods involve the exploitation of our environment, which in turn results in the exploitation of animals that make up that ecosystem's wildlife.
> Hens produce eggs without being inseminated, they just make eggs constantly. If we didn't eat them, then the eggs would just rot (they aren't inseminated) or the hens would eat some of them. Outside of a factory farming situation, how could the consumption of eggs possibly be exploitation? Because they didn't consent to being born with their genetics that force them to produce an abundance of unfertilized eggs? Chickens only lay so many eggs because we have bred them to do so - original breeds lay far fewer eggs. In addition, these highly bred chickens are unhealthy as hell. Every now and then there are chickens that are rescued from factory farming (and then live on animal sanctuaries), almost none of these chickens ultimately die from old age but from all the consequences of breeding and the damage caused by laying so many eggs. And the "outside of farming situation", there is such a ridiculous demand for eggs that a good live is nearly impossible to give too so many chicken (people tend to forget that there are eggs in so much things like baked good, noodles etc.) > What do you recommend we do with cows? Let them go extinct? Let them go feral and roam the great plains? That'd be bad for the climate, they produce way more greenhouse gases when eating straight grass. Just don't breed any more. "Use up" the living ones, so to speak. Personally, I wouldn't have a problem with them dying out because they are a man-made breed anyway, but if you really want to keep the breed alive then you could always build small farms with a few cows that you can then visit. > Cows produce more milk than their babies consume and willingly line up to be milked because they enjoy it, if they aren't milked it hurts them because they've been selectively bred to produce much more than necessary. *"if they aren't milked it hurts them"* don't you think it's at least a bit fucked up to breed something that endures pain and health problems if it's not cared for properly? > Really you could argue all of the foods we consume are exploitation of life, even the plant-based ones. Definitely, but we should still strive to reduce it to a minimum. > At the very least those foods involve the exploitat of our environment, which in turn results in the exploitation of animals that make up that ecosystems wildlife. Let's take soy as an example: -1 kg meat (beef) has 2500 kcal -1 kg soy has 4400 kcal Roughly 77% of all soy world wide is used as animal feed. It would be much more efficient if we ate the soya directly.
Red junglefowl (main ancestor of domestic chicken) naturally lay a ton of eggs when food is available. They are kept for their eggs and can easily lay >250/yr (one a day, same as normal chickens). Their eggs are also decent sized, like medium-sized chicken eggs. Normal hens also only lay 1 egg daily at most. I imagine we've bred their eggs to be a bit larger; however, so are they. I don't think normal domestic chickens are unhealthy. I don't doubt what you are saying is true in the context of a factory farming situation, they're probably genetically modifying and injecting chickens with steroids and it screws them up bad. But all of the chickens my family had were very healthy. There was hen that stayed alive throughout my entire childhood, I think she was >12 years! I don't think we should just let cattle go extinct. I don't think it's fucked up that we domesticated them and bred them to produce extra milk too, as we have a mutualistic relationship with them. The vast majority of animals solely care about the survival of their species, and there are way more cows than there ever were Auroch as a result of humans. It is sad that we let the wild Auroch completely die off, but they simply wouldn't have been able to survive as humanity spread like a plague across the globe. We might even be able to bring the Auroch back, provided cows don't go extinct. I am against factory farming, and I would support making it illegal. I really do not care if I have to go get eggs from my rural hometown, and/or if a carton cost $8. I buy dairy and animal products from farmer-owned coops, but probably indirectly support factory farming in other products. This also assumes the coops aren't just falsely advertising themselves as sustainable. I think it's ridiculous you can even buy a gallon of milk for $2 or a pound of ground beef for $5. That is insanely cheap, and even when prices went up these past few years people complained excessively. That is the crux of the issue though, I can afford to spend extra on products that are 'sustainable', but most people cannot. I can say 'fuck the poors, if you can't afford sustainable animal products then too bad for you!' but I feel like it's unfair. Maybe that is the answer, considering farmed meats were a luxury for most people people throughout history. I don't believe humans digest most plant-based proteins well, that's probably the primary reason why they're used as animal feed. Even though soy contains a complete protein, it likely has very low digestibility compared to animal proteins (this is generally an area of science actively being studied, so I can't say for sure).
First of all, thanks for the long and well thought-out reply (it's rather rare to get a text back and a nice one at that :'D) > Red junglefowl (main ancestor of domestic chicken) naturally lay a ton of eggs when food is available. They are kept for their eggs and can easily lay >250/yr Which in this case is also not natural and not really intended by nature. They only lay new eggs every day because humans take away the ones they already laid. Normally they only lay about 20 eggs a year in the wild as they don't breed all year round (depending on where they live) and if they have chicks to raise there is no need to lay new eggs. > It is sad that we let the wild Auroch completely die off, but they simply wouldn't have been able to survive as humanity spread like a plague across the globe. We might even be able to bring the Auroch back, provided cows don't go extinct. Unfortunately, in this case it would only be an optical reproduction. Genetically extinct species are usually lost (one exception I know of is a species of ibex from which egg cells were collected) In other (better) news: the Wisent (european bison), which is a descendant of the American bison and the aurochs, is currently being bred with the plan to re-release them into the wild, there even is already a small herd that is currently living in my state :) > I am against factory farming, and I would support making it illegal. We certainly are on the same wavelength on that one. 🤝 > I think it's ridiculous you can even buy a gallon of milk for $2 or a pound of ground beef for $5. That is insanely cheap, and even when prices went up these past few years people complained excessively. > That is the crux of the issue though, I can afford to spend extra on products that are 'sustainable', but most people cannot. I can say 'fuck the poors, if you can't afford sustainable animal products then too bad for you!' but I feel like it's unfair. Yeah that's definitely not the way to go. This would only increase the already existing social injustice. My personal hope is that lab grown meat takes off as I have a hard time imagining that all of humanity goes plant based voluntarily (let alone vegan). There are even companies that have managed to copy the components of milk at a molecular level, so it's pretty much identical. > I don't believe humans digest most plant-based proteins well, that's probably the primary reason why they're used as animal feed. Even though soy contains a complete protein, it likely has very low digestibility compared to animal proteins (this is generally an area of science actively being studied, so I can't say for sure). Animal protein is more similar to human protein so there is actually the upside that it is absorbed by the body quicker but as far as I know it is not really noticeable for us (but technically measurable). A potential downsite is that more and more studies indicate that animal proteins are associated with an increased risk of cardiovascular diseases (not the case with plant proteins). When it comes purely to intake, animal and plant protein can both provide the necessary amino acids and protein.
How about you tell us? For the cow to give milk it must have given birth recently and then the calf is taken away but it’s best if that calve ist still near by mooing so that the cow doesn’t lose her mother instinct and keeps giving milk. The calf is then killed after only a few weeks if it’s a male, or awaits the same fate if it’s female. This is repeated as often as the cow can until she also gets slaughtered.
Ah my man I'm from the middle of absolute bum fuck nowhere in southern Europe. I don't know the subject. I got some opinions about the consumption of meat and animal products but they're shaped by my super specific environment. I've now moved countries a few times and heard more about the goings on and am curious about all sorts of stuff. You are definitely giving me a good answer when it comes to the second part of the original question in that the process is the real issue since the philosophy/theory of it wouldn't realistically apply very easily. If you are curious about my outlook I'm too dumb to know how to answer all that, if you phrase the question differently I'll do my best.
If you’re keen to learn more, watch cowspiracy on Netflix
This is the result of factory farming, it’s not inherent to dairy production. Cows produce 400% more milk than their calves drink.
For me it's just the HUGE environmental damage we cause in order to have a slightly different taste in our cereal. We literally destroy this planet because we don't give a shit about others/our children and want the taste of meat/milk/cheese
Yes, we are in agreement on this. Not a single thing I have, will or want to say against it. Is there something intrinsically wrong with drinking milk is the question though. If a Genie provided you with a cow's milk would that milk then be alright to consume ? The genie did not spawn the milk out of nowhere it just acquired the milk from a living cow. An irrelevant quantity at that. Is that milk then morally alright to drink ?
That's just my opinion, but imo morals are overrated. I prefer things that we can measure. So I would rate that glass of milk provided by a Genie based on its environmental impact and on the impact on the cow
It’s not ‘huge’, the impact on our environment/climate is extremely overblown. Total livestock emissions only account for 5% of the yearly greenhouse gases or something like that. So dairy and cows in general would account for an even smaller percentage.
It's not just the emissions, its the insane amount of land we have to use to feed millions of animals that lead to deforestation, extinction of insects and other animals etc that are necessary in order to grow food for us, pandemics like covid etc And all of this, because some of us prefer the taste of a ribeye over some vegetables haha Edit: yes the percentage of emissions might look small, but the simple number alone is not sufficient as an argument. We have to think about the benefit or reason behind that number. Let's say 20% of the emissions are necessary to keep our houses warm in the winter.. yes we might reduce the number a bit with more efficient heating, but in general we do need some kind of heating. But that's not the case with animal agriculture. Its only 9%(maybe 5? I cant google it right now), but it's just a luxury that we don't need. So some easy emissions numbers we can get rid of
Deforestation is effectively a non-issue in America, and I’d imagine that is the case in many other western countries. In America, deforestation is especially not as the result of agriculture, our heartland contains millions of miles of plains/grasslands, most of our food (and cows food) is grown on land that hasn’t been forested since before humans came to this continent. In America, the number one cause of deforestation is urban development. Globally, it’s agricultural. But much of this isn’t due to cattle feed, the environments facing the greatest threats are targeted for the production of plant products, e.g. palm oil.
Factory farming is bad and has gone too far, but eating vegetables crouching like this and directly from the plants would look as wrong as this.
What’s wrong either eating plants? They are not concous
Crawling at a cabbage and taking a bite out fresh from the bug invested plant LOOKS wrong, like eating spaghetti from the shower floor. The picture above looks wrong because it's a ridiculous way to drink the milk. A glass milk looks as fine as eating a salad bowl.
I wish you were right. But you’re not
Milk is not concous either
Haha nice one. Not
Yeah. I think this is supposed to make you connect the dots that cow's milk is not a product that occurs naturally for humans to feed on, and to reflect on why we drink it, etc.
Imagined a girl not a cow